July 14, 2000

UP TO THE MINUTE STOCK QUOTES FOR ALL OF "OUR" MANUFACTURERS

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

IN REGARDS TO THE MESSAGE ABOUT BREAST IMPLANT REMOVAL FROM THE MARKETPLACE.

Wow, what an interesting few days it has been.  I put out the following message a few days back, to express my views on implants and their removal from the market.  As the responses came in, I was amazed some of you actually supporting my view point.  I had expected a backlash, and although, there were the expected postings trying to "reason" with me to keep the hard-line.  I actually received a few "kind" remarks as well.

As an aside, those of you who are members of SBI-One List (Sue Olexa's  group), Sue had put me on "moderated" status, in response to my message below.  Her comments were she deemed the message divisive, and her forum was not meant to express views different from the group.  I asked Sue to please just go ahead and un-subscribe me, since I couldn't see the point of being ex-communicated from the group.  It's sort of like being an ex-communicated church goer, where you can sit in church and watch, but aren't allowed to participate.

I want to thank those of you who e-mailed me privately, and expressed your support of my ideas, as well as those of your own.

I have never wanted any view among implant victims to be deemed divisive, but rather wish for the exchange of ideas, to promote a coming together of the very best ideas and materials to promote our cause to it's highest and best degree.  I have repeated my message immediately following here, and then also copied on some of the messages (the good, the bad, and the ugly),  I have received from all of you, so you may have all opinions necessary to come to your own conclusions.  Some writers have asked for anonymity.

Myrl

~*~*~*~*

(Original Message)

 

I'm going to say something that is very controversial here, and I know full

well that many if not most of you will disagree.

 

 

I have a different perspective on "forcing" all implants off of the market.

I fully agree with everything that you have said regarding the fact that the

pressure of the manufacturers and the plastic surgeons on our people to keep

implants available is horrific.

I also know as you ladies do, implants present many unreasonable dangers, and

are very much a threat to health and life. That being said, I am very much

against any mandates that take away the freedom of choice.

In matters of abortion, I am not pro-life, nor am I pro-choice. I fall

somewhere in the middle. I do not believe we can legislate morality in

issues of life. My "personal" belief (and that is all it is), I would

rather all alternatives to abortion be looked at strongly, by individuals.

I would hope if an individual (and her husband/partner), decide they cannot

care for a child, or there is an issue of absolute deformity, defect, etc.,

they would decide to terminate as early as possible. In my mind there is a

time when I get queezy with the notion of ending a pregnancy. It is

somewhere after the first trimester (3 months). In no-way can I stomach the

idea of partial-birth abortion (which generally happens with a full term

child being murdered by the physician as it is being born by taking a

scalpel to the base of the brain.

But again, these are just my beliefs, and the issue is far too personal, and

is in my mind a spiritual issue for that individual to be taking up with

their god, rather than having governments mandate issues surrounding it.

While in Idaho, I saw a bumper sticker that summed up my beliefs 100%

regarding abortion. It said, "Life, what a beautiful Choice." How

perfectly true the statement was. It did not mandate these decisions, it

left choice intact, but "suggested" life ought to be considered beautiful,

and make the choice to maintain it in it's reverence.

I have the same stance on the removal of all breast implants from the market

place. I'd rather women would not be implanted because I know the dangers

that implants pose. However, that being said, I do not want to go so far as

to mandate no woman have the right to have implants, should she so decide

after full disclosure of the concerns of these devices. Again, no entities

should have that much power over an individuals right to decide these issues

for themselves. I've heard all the arguments about taxpayers rights to not

have to foot the bill for future medical costs of future implant victims. I

agree and I disagree. We all come into this life, with our own set of

assets to mankind and our costs as well. It's just another part of life.

If we mandate that no women can have implants available to them, because

"we" say so, and we know best, we are infringing upon the rights of those

that feel otherwise. How do we reconcile the fact that there is an

outrageously high number of implant victims who say they are happy with

their implants? Granted, they likely are having health issues, that they

have not identified as being caused by their implants, and don't understand

they should be unhappy. But in the end, the answer comes in education,

disclosure, education, disclosure, education. All prior to implantation,

and for those who are already implanted, now!

Again, I feel it would be arrogant for the minority of women to mandate to

the majority that we know best, and with the aid of big brother, we big

mamas are gonna say what they will or will not have available to them.

In my mind's eye, the best answer comes in total education, and mandatory

FULL disclosures about the risks of implants before they are implanted. .

.and I believe there ought to be an adequate "cooling down" period for the

patient to re-consider after the FULL disclosures are presented and the

actual scheduled surgery. I would hope the focus of our movement would be

on the quality of disclosures presented, so no woman comes away uninformed,

or misinformed.

There has been many times in life, when I've said to people, "Just deal with

it!" Yet, when I try to apply it to a breast cancer patient, who is seeing

her idenity as a woman threatened by the loss of breasts, possibly/probably

her hair during post surgery therapy, and ultimately the possibility of a

husband/mate who can't deal with all this, I cannot find it in my heart to

say, "Just deal with it!"

 

Although, I understand how it would be so easy if she could just deal with

it, I also know that we are as women, the total sum of all of our

experiences. Therefore, we cannot easily disolve all of who we are, and have

become, through a lifetime of cultural development based on a Madison Avenue

existence in this society. How we perceive ourselves as women, has a

significant impact on our identies and reflects to the very being of who we

are.

Another analogy has to do with the recent loss of our sister, P.J. Brent. I

would never have wanted things to have been so bad that another human being

felt that death was the only choice. However, there is a law against

suicide (which seems dumb, since you can't bring a person back to prosecute

them). Again, in my mind, it behooves society, to attempt to right the

things in individual's environment so death does not seem the only choice.

But in the final analysis, the right belongs to the individual, no matter

how painful it is to all of us surrounding them, and again, "Life, what a

beautiful choice!"

Myrl

- - - - - -

(The Responses):

Response #1

 

You are right Myrl, it is very controversial, what you said, and

totally inappropriate for the SBI TALK forum group that you posted this

on. I have put you on Moderated Status as a result of such a devisive

and disruptive post such as this last one. If you truly feel as you

expressed in your post, then I am wondering why you are on this group?

 

Surely you must know what the consensus of opinion is with most BI

women, regarding removing breast implants from the market place, until

they are proven safe. I will not allow a post of that nature again.

It serves a totally different agenda than what this group was formed

for, and is devisive in nature to the degree that it can tear a group

apart. I will not allow that to happen.

SBI-Talk has, for the most part, and seems to be doing well, and women

have interacted nicely. If there had only been this one post, I would

not have put you on moderated status....but you also ATTACKED a BI

woman, earlier on with little to no regard for anothers feelings, which

was Weedlet, and I will never allow that to happen again either. As I

have said, we can disagree with someone, but we cannot attack that

person.

You might wish to form your own group and discuss your "philosophies"

and "politics" there, but it is inappropriate to do so on SBI-Talk. I

urge you to adhere to the rules of the group as set out in my post

today.

Sue

(*Note: The "attack" of another BI woman on SBI-Onelist was actually a "clarification and response."  Another woman on the forum had made false accusations and comments, regarding a long term breast implant victim, who had provided untold research and materials to the net for all of our usage.  I had simply responded and defended this woman without attacking.   In another posting I rendered an opinion that Elian Gonzalez ought to be allowed to be with his father (even if it meant returning to Cuba).  It was deemed an inappropriate comment, since it was non-implant related.  I had no idea, there were rules and constraints when I joined SBI-Onelist.  I knew they existed on Nicole's (pro-implant board), but didn't understand they belonged on Sue Olexa's forum.  One thing we all understand, is that silicone related illness does not always keep us at our very best. . .Myrl

 

Response #2

I am real touchy when it comes to the "choice' issue. I wouldn't want any type legislation voted into law that would mandate any of my "choices". This is where i become confused about the breast implant issue since these devices have robbed me of my life and health as i once knew it....and i would not want this to happen to another human being. But, having said that, I am trying to '"toss around" the "lethalness" of these products.

For instance. Phen fen was taken off the market because it affected the heart valve of some of the recipients of these drugs. Breast Implants enlarged something in the left part of my heart, caused me

Cardio Pulmonary problems and a mitral valve prolapsed. (all undetectable now that my implants have been removed) . So I keep asking myself what the difference is between these two other than the fact that one is a pill and one is a medical device?

I feel that when and if the Gov. every fully and truthfully finds out the effects of silicone on the heart and brain that they will be taken off the market indefinitely. Until that time. I too am "pro choice" in every aspect of life. But this breast implant issue confounds me because it hits home.

So Myrl, i agree with you about choice. I just feel that when it comes to big corporations, they get to "buy" choice for everyone. like it or not....and as "they see it". It is so confounding, this issue.

Love to all

Response #3

A very well written and thought out piece on extremely complex issues!

Response #4

What I think I find so outrageous is the total denial that implants can make

you ill...and again as you pointed out.. a full disclosure is needed... I

also understand the need for a woman who has lost her breast to try to be

normal.. and i understand the emotional need for a no breasted woman to want

to be 'normal'.. but then, what is normal?? I guess I had been reading to

many Cosmopolitan way back when... looking back i really do not know why it

was important at the age 42.. would i do it again.. absolutely not... but had

I lost a breast, I do not know if that would be my answer... just being

honest.. I do think that if the real story was presented.. (medical) that

most women would say no... you know in south America, being large busted is

considered ugly.. breast reductions are common there... found that out from a

friend who is from Columbia... and I am pro choice.. and abortion after the

1st trimester is murder.. plan and simple...so i am both pro life and pro

choice...I agree with you on everything that you presented....


Response #5

So well said, Myrl! You have hit it squarely on the head! Thanks, my friend.

Response #6

Myrl,

You have raised an excellent question that I have given some thought too. On

the AOL Plastic Surgery Discussion Boards someone recently called it a

'Right' to get implants. This is where I take exception.

Without AIDS do I have a right to receive and take AZT? Without pain do I

have a right to receive and take Vicodin? Without Cancer do I have a right

to receive and take Medical Marijuana? Without an underlying psychologoical

issue do I have the right to receive and take Valium? This list can continue

quite a bit.

These are all simple medical advancements provided, via prescription, to

those who need them. Should I casually be allowed to request and receive a

surgical procedure, say a frontal lobotomy? Of course not! And the same

should be true for the surgical procedure to insert implants. It should not

be just a matter of 'freedom of choice'.

For years implant proponents have related efficacy to self esteem. The

biggest problem here is that we have let Plastic Surgeons diagnose self

esteem issues, when we all know full well it is a psychological issue. What

PS is adequately trained to differentiate a self esteem problem from the

emotional illness of body dismorphic disorder?

 

Body Dysmorphic Disorder(BDD) and

Butler Body Image Program

In medicine, the MD does not make money when he prescribes a medication. If

they did, this could quickly become an avenue of abuse for financial gain.

Why then, should a PS be allowed to prescribe and perform an 'elective'

surgey. Doesn't the same potential for abuse exist? Possibly even greater,

due to the dollars involved?

I personally believe all breast implant surgery for augmentation purposes

should be prescribed by a board certified psychiatrist who is fully aware of

the patients motivation and all of the potential drawbacks, especially the

second generation effects. Plastic Surgeons are not qualified family

planners either! In fact, most don't even ask.

Your thoughts please.

Dan Buck

Response #7

I am so glad you expressed thoughts, I couldn't  put into words.  

Response #10

Hi Myrl,

You go girl, So perfectly said. I agree with you. I have been one to go without additional implantation after mastectomy due to implants. I have found the courage to like myself anyway however, I do understand how difficult that is. I am really pro choice since I believe as you do that all of it is between

God and the person themselves. Thanks for the opinion I fully agree.

Response #11

I agree with Myrl in most respects . . . however, I think third party

counseling would be more likely to deliver objective information.

My response to friends who have had, or suspected that they might have

breast cancer is to tell them simply that there are no good options. One day

they will be able to grow breast tissue, but until then, it doesn't look

good.

 

None of my friends have gotten implants . . . they don't let the loss of a

breast bother them. In fact they frequently go without a prosthesis. One

said she considers the other breast a nuisance and is considering having it

removed.

Response #12

Well said Myrl!

Response #13

I agree, but feel that they should be forced to look for safer implants

that do not cause as many problems. Maybe a 10 year moratorium where they

can inform but must find safer alternatives. Surely there is something

that many women would not react to (wishful thinking?). Since they can

sell these, they have no incentive to find something better.

I totally agree on the abortion issue. Would not do it myself, but cannot

see legislating other's behaviors.

Lynda

Response #14

I agree and disagree with a lot of what you said...but you have made me think.

I being a breast cancer survivor have mixed emotions on what you said

there....but I do KNOW that the alternatives that are available today are FAR

superior to the options that I had 22 yrs ago ( when I was only 25 yrs old).

What makes me sick is the YOUNG ( 16 to 20 yr olds) that are getting implants

like they are a new pair of shoes!! That is what we need to stop.

Response #15

Good for you. Wish it applied to everything...we'd hardly need a government.

I was happy "one-sided" for 11 years until the implant was pushed on

me......and here I've been since.....like PJ, and my silicone soulmate. They

succeeded, I never did.

With all the pain of all sorts, that is too bad to describe, life ahead looks

awfully dark and dank.

I resisted in the beginning......11 years, let them do it.....but I did do

the choosing, didn't I....what's worse than self-hatred.

Response #16

If the majority of cancer victims were pro implants, then I would have

to wonder whether they have considered how many more women are being

sacrificed to illness in order that implants be available to them. I

would think (my personal non-committal phrase) women who have suffered

as dearly as women with breast cancer would emerge as the strongest

proponents for breast disease prevention. Having faced their own

mortality, I would be inclined to think that as a group they would

support a mandate to remove breast implants from the marketplace until

their safety could be establish. It seems to me that a similar premise

is at work among our group. We have nothing to gain by fighting so

vehemently, yet we continue to do so. Why? Because expending our

energy may save the lives of those who come after us. I'd like to think

the majority of God's children are prompted to think about the good of

all before they choose to benefit as individuals. Am I being naive?

 

Response #17

Myrl,

Supposedly, in a democratic society, people should have the freedom to make

both healthy and unhealthy choices. People ruin their health all the time

with smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, over and under eating in addition

and a host of other things. We may have the freedom to make those choices,

however, all of those things are recognized by society, the medical and legal

communities as being harmful. Consequently, public and private monies are set

aside, programs are organized and developed to help people not to make these

harmful choices.

What makes implants different is that the scientific community, the medical

community and our legal system are all denying that implants causes any

significant harm (local complication being the exception). When the fact

is that breast implants, in fact all medical implanted devices, cause a

chronic inflammatory disease syndrome that is systemic, progressive and

irreversible. It is important to note that there is no protocol of treatment

for the varying symptoms this inflammatory process causes because the medical

community does not admit that it even exists. This fact alone is unbelieveably

inhumane.

Without the facts, about the harm that implants cause, people can not make

an informed decision. Without informed consent it becomes a huge human

experiment. They are choosing one thing and getting another - I believe

this is caused lying, fraud and deception.

The reason why these communities have combined forces, to deny the problems

that breast implants cause, is important to understand. The body parts

industry is a 100 billion dollar a year industry. That equals 1% of our GNP.

(see below articles) There is too much money involved. Consequently,

science, judges, lawyers, politicians and even support groups are swayed and

bought. Knowing that this is actually happening, one has to ask - are we

really a democracy? Are we really free to choose?

In addition to this aspect - there is another and equally important part

that Mary White Stewart addressed in her book "Silicone Spills". Women who've

had implants, and suffer from the effects that they inevitably cause, are

experiencing a form of violence against women. It is an invasion just like

rape. On the one hand, once women start experiencing symptoms, they are

blamed for being stupid, for not knowing any better and that they

themselves have caused their own harm. Then on the other hand, the

legal and medical establishments deny and rebuke that the symptoms

women are experiencing have anything to do with their implants. It is

a huge fraud, lie and public deception. A pro-choice stance on implants

enables this fraud, deception and harm to continue.

Yes, there is a humanitarian need for safe implants, of all kinds, but our

survival as a species has depended on our bodies knowing the difference

between what is our biological system and what is another system (virus,

bacteria, splinters, implants). We have many thousands of years of evolution

that has depended on this one fact. Even with biological organ transplants,

the patient has to take powerful immune suppresents for the rest of their

life for thier body to tolerate this "other" entity. What makes implants

excempt from our body identifying implants as "other" as a foreign body?

I thought anyone who has been in involved in this issue would understand these

fundamental aspects. Unfortunately, many get used to the fraud, lies and

violence and begin to think that it's not so bad after all. Some have been

bought out. I don't understand why Mryl has taken the "Why Me" stance and

have suddenly become "pro choice" on the issue of implants and violence

against women.

Personally, I will continue to speak out against the physical, mental and

emotional abuse against women that choosing implants bring. Pro-choice on

implants is something I could never advocate and will continue to speak out

against it. Choosing implants is a covert form of manipulation and violence

against women, the point is to raise the consciousness of all people, to

what women are REALLY choosing.

I am deeply disappointed and feel betrayed by what Myrl has written.

1. Spare Body Parts is a 100 billion dollar a year industry.

http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB958181867990059815.djm

2. Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:25:26 -0700 (PDT)

From: ruby rahn <rubyrm@yahoo.com> | Block address

Subject: Body Parts = 100 Billion = 1% of GNP

To: Ruby Rahn <rubyrm@yahoo.com>

Barrons

MAY 15, 2000

The Sixty Billion Dollar Man

U.S spending on medical implants, including follow-up care, now

exceeds $100 billion dollars a year, or about 1% of GDP. The

diagram below details the most common of all implants, which,

including parts and labor, add up to over $60 billion a year.

1 - Cochlear Implant

Parts: $10,000

Labor: $20,000

Total Cost: $30,000

Procedures: 10,000

Annual Outlay: $300 M

Manufacturers: Cochlear; P1 Medical

2 - Hydrocephalus Shunt

Parts: $700

Labor: $9,300

Total Cost: $10,000

Procedures: 10,000

Annual Outlay: $100 M

Manufacturers: Radionics; Medtronic;

Johnson & Johnson

3 - Intraocular Lens

Parts: $250

Labor: $1,000

Total Cost: $1,250

Procedures: 10 M

Annual Outlay: $12.5 B

Manufacturer: Alcon

Laboratories; Bausch & Lomb

4 - Dental Implant

Parts: $250

Labor: $1,250 per tooth

Total Cost: $1,500

Procedures: 200,000

Annual Outlay: $300 M

Manufacturer: Nobel Biocare; Sulzer Medica

5 - Saline & Silicone

Breast Implants

Parts: $1,000

Labor: $4,000

Total Cost: $5,000

Procedures: 120,000

Annual Outlay: $600 M

Manufacturer: Mentor

6 - Hip Implant

Parts: $2,000-5,000

Labor: $30,000

Total Cost: $35,000

Procedures: 225,000

Annual Outlay: $7.9 B

Manufacturers: Zimmer; Sulzer Medica

7 - Vascular Graft

Parts: $200

Labor: $20,000

Total Cost: $20,000

Procedures: 100,000

Annual Outlay: $2 B

Principal Manufacturers: W.L. Gore; C.R. Bard; Boston Scientific

8 - Knee Implant

Parts: $1,500-4000

Labor: $32,000

Total Cost: $35,000

Procedures: 250,000

Annual Outlay: $8.75 B

Principal Manufacturers: Zimmer; Sulzer Medica

9 - Penile Implant

Parts: $2,000

Labor: $8,000

Total Cost: $10,000

Procedures: 10,000

Annual Outlay: $100 M

Principal Manufacturer: American Medical Systems

10 - Left Ventrical Assist Device

Parts: $50,000

Labor: $150,000

Total Cost: $200,000

Procedures: 2,000

Annual Outlay: $400 M

Manufacturer: Edwards Lifesciences

11 - Heart Valve

Parts: $2,000-6,000

Labor: $45,000

Total Cost: $50,000

Procedures: 100,000

Annual Outlay: $5 B

Manufacturers: St. Jude Medical; Medtronics; Edwards Lifesciences

12 - Cardiovascular Stent

Parts: $2,000

Labor: $18,000

Total Cost: $20,000

Procedures: 1 M

Annual Outlay: $20 B

Manufacturers: Johnson & Johnson; Guidant

13 - Pacemakers & Defribulators

Parts: $4,000-7,000

Labor: $20,000

Total Cost: $25,000

Procedures: 225,000

Annual Outlay: $5.6 B

Manufacturer: Medtronics

Ruby, Thank you for the interesting figures near the end of your post.  I had not seen these before.  I'm sorry you are feeling betrayed.  Again, I'm hopeful you don't see a differing view point as divisive to the cause.  I perceive coming to the same outcome, but allowing women to feel some control and choice in their lives.  What I'm hearing however, is there is a segment of us that wish to strip control and "choices" (even if they are bad ones), from others. 

If you can encompass more women to work for having the very safest medical device products on the market available, and if you insist that the FDA do all of it's own testing, and not rely on the testing of the manufacturers.  If you insist that no implants be marketed without FDA approval (which they were until recently), and if you hold the FDA absolutely accountable, you have vast improvement.  If implants cannot be proven safe (rather than our having to prove they are not), and if they are not approved because of it, then so be it.  It will be because the FDA has finally done their job, rather than shirk it.  They can be the entity limiting choices, not us.  But more women will be part of that process, educated and informed during it, and come to the same better choice... Myrl

 

Response #18

Myrl,

I hope YOU understand that the pro-choice viewpoint, your "direction" as you put it, will play right into the manufacturers' and plastic surgeons' hands.

We as breast implant activists must be united in calling for no unproven implants on the market.

Yes, Mentor and McGhan were approved. The restrictions asked for by the expert panel were ignored by the FDA. There will be no further research now.

No one will attempt to market a "safer" implant, they don't HAVE to now!

And it will take a miracle for those now-approved implants to get un-approved. The best we can do right now is maintain our stance that all implants are hazardous, and educate women. Politically, I do not know where this is going, and neither you nor I, Myrl, are in a position to make that judgement. We are not privy to the goings-ons in Congress or the FDA.

I'm still going to work on this. And my stand WILL be to have the implants banned. If not me, who? In every discussion, or argument, there must be 2 sides. If we relinquish ours, what do you think will happen then?

 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

OTHER SILICONE RELATED RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH
THE SILICONE WEBRING

http://www.homestead.com/siliconecity /webring

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

WHERE THERE’S SMOKE THERE’S FIRE ~ On The Net
The following websites have the “Where There’s Smoke There’s Fire” documents:

httphttp://implants.clic.net/tony/Smoke/index.html

http://www.homestead.com/siliconecity/index.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Dow Docs - Online

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

TRIBUTE WEB PAGE FOR P.J. BRENT

http://www.webstarmagic.com/brent.htm

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

HUMOR. . .

SEX TEST FOR REDNECKS. . .Jeff Foxworthy are you out there???

1. A menstrual cycle has three wheels. True or False

2. Asphalt describes rectal problems. True or False

3. Spread Eagle is an extinct bird. True or False

4. Vagina is a medical term used to describe a Heart Attack. True or False

5. The clitoris is a type of flower. True or False

6. A G-string is part of a fiddle. True or False

7. Semen is a term for sailors. True or False

8. Anus is a Latin term for yearly. True or False

9. Testicles are found on an Octopus. True or False

10. A pubic hair is a wild rabbit. True or False

11. KOTEX is a radio station in Cincinnati. True or False

12. Masturbate is used to catch large fish. True or False

13. Coitus is a musical instrument. True or False

14. Fetus is a character on Gunsmoke. True or False

15. An umbilical cord is part of a parachute. True or False

16. A condom is a large apartment complex. True or False

17. An orgasm is a person who accompanies a church choir. True or False

18. A diaphragm is a drawing in geometry. True or False

19. A dildo is a variety of sweet pickle. True or False

20. An erection is when Japanese people vote. True or False

21. A lesbian is a person from the Middle East. True or False

22. Sodomy is a special land of fast growing grass. True or False

23. Pornography is the business of making records. True or False

24. Genitals are people of non-Jewish origin. True or False

25. Douche is the French word for "twelve." True or False

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*